tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11544102.post113381956761459561..comments2023-05-19T01:13:01.860-07:00Comments on Alienated in Church: The Year 2K War of Attrition in Church MusicMichael Dodarohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10218455310804805561noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11544102.post-1133919064048256822005-12-06T17:31:00.000-08:002005-12-06T17:31:00.000-08:00After playing through some mellow hymn tunes I've ...After playing through some mellow hymn tunes I've arranged as unaccompanied trombone solos, my mind has kind of mellowed out.<BR/><BR/>One thing, Jason, I'm not trying to say your music is evil or immoral. I have listened to a few of the pieces on your website and I have to admit as I'm driving in the car, there are times I will turn on the local Christian radio station and if the music playing is "mild", like yours is, I will listen to it. It's just not the style I would use in a worship service.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11544102.post-1133915077974512492005-12-06T16:24:00.000-08:002005-12-06T16:24:00.000-08:00Ray, you made my day!Ray, you made my day!Michael Dodarohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10218455310804805561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11544102.post-1133914351593615112005-12-06T16:12:00.000-08:002005-12-06T16:12:00.000-08:00Ah... playing my bass trombone can be such an insp...Ah... playing my bass trombone can be such an inspiration, from soft, mellow, dulcet tones, to loud raucous almost obscene noise. Love those pedal tones, great for clearing out the cobwebs. You haven't lived until you've heard a big fat pedal F played FFF. It can loosen your fillings.<BR/><BR/>Where was I? Oh, yeah.... take John Cage. He wrote a piece entitled 4' 33". The performer takes the stage, sits at the grand piano picking up a stop watch which he clicks on then closes the lid to the keyboard. He sits there for 4 minutes and 33 seconds, clicks off the stop watch, opens the keyboard cover then stands up and triumphantly stands and takes a bow. He never played a note. The audience applauds wildly. Loud huzzahs. What's the point? John Cage did not believe in absolutes. Life, in his opinion, is random. Nature is all there is. The music of 4' 33" is the extraneous noise from the audience, coughing, shifting in their seats, squeaks, groans, sighs, maybe a car horn honking as it passes the building. These are all random noises and Cage used them to make a statement. A philosophical statement. None of those noises can be assigned morality. But, Cage is using them to give a moral message. <BR/><BR/>As I said above, syncopation is neither moral nor immoral. But, if a song writer uses rhythmic elements to whip people into a state of uninhibited frenzy, the musical message takes on a sense of morality. <BR/><BR/>Just wait until I practice my tuba in a little while, that can really give me strange ideas.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11544102.post-1133911077179524212005-12-06T15:17:00.000-08:002005-12-06T15:17:00.000-08:00OK, let's clear up one thing here. Jason, the ele...OK, let's clear up one thing here. Jason, the elements of music are amoral. As you yourself inferred above, the words and the intent assign morality. Nothing moral or immoral about a middle C or a C major chord or a C minor chord... augmented, diminished, minor second, suspension - resolution, and so on and so on. Even getting into tempi - the predominant tempo of Rock is 120MM. That doesn't make any song performed at 120MM immoral or moral. Whole notes are not more moral than half notes or hemidemisemi quavers for that matter. Syncopation has no morality. <BR/><BR/>Those are just a few of the many elements that comprise music. It is part of the language of music. Language is used to convey thoughts, ideas... it communicates a message. What is that message a song writer or composer is trying to convey? How he arranges the musical elements will determine what he is trying to accomplish. What is the message he is sending? What is the message the listener is receiving? A composer will select certain music idioms or invent new idioms (John Cage) to musically describe his thoughts - to convey his message.<BR/><BR/>Take a Grace Slick tune, one that the text spoke of drugs and alcohol, particularly in a positive light (sorry, I wasn't into that scene and don't know any of her tunes, but I know of her). Now put "Christian" words to that tune. Does that somehow sanctify the tune? What message will the typical Boomer receive?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11544102.post-1133909821647016332005-12-06T14:57:00.000-08:002005-12-06T14:57:00.000-08:00Creation not only cries out in worship, but it als...Creation not only cries out in worship, but it also groans. So can any sound made by a living being (sentient or not) be amoral?<BR/><BR/>Romans 8:20-22<BR/>20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope <BR/><BR/>21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. <BR/><BR/> 22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11544102.post-1133908462629950042005-12-06T14:34:00.000-08:002005-12-06T14:34:00.000-08:00Jason--You said: "Music is ammoral, not immoral. W...Jason--<BR/><BR/>You said: "Music is ammoral, not immoral. We cannot say with any sort of authority that sounds in themselves are evil or good. The words and intent behind them-- now THAT is a different story."<BR/><BR/>The music is part of the intent of the composer, along with the words. The music is not amoral (meaning without any moral) - it carries the words and augments or intensifies the message.<BR/><BR/>The sounds of creation praise God with whatever voice it has, which can be limited to either a twirp or roar or croak. But the sounds humans make has a huge and very nuanced variety and forms the harmony and melodies of our very language. Accordingly, we can convey many things with our sounds which carry our intentions. In human hands and throats music can never be amoral because humankind is not an amoral being. We call someone or some utterance amoral if it goes completely contrary to the moral universe that humans must operate in. Amorality is a perversion of our nature. It signals deadness of spirit.<BR/><BR/>It would be better if you choose another term to describe music.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11544102.post-1133908264195251472005-12-06T14:31:00.000-08:002005-12-06T14:31:00.000-08:00Except for the culture that Bach inhabits. It's a...Except for the culture that Bach inhabits. It's a culture permeated by Christian virtues and containing a metaphysics that is a combination of Greek classicism and Hebrew theology. It is the historic synthesis of Platonic Form and Law as found in the Book of Genesis. Not exactly a walk in the park!<BR/>Somehow we have to preserve and develop Christian culture that both preserves historic advances and helps people enjoy unmediated communion with God.Michael Dodarohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10218455310804805561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11544102.post-1133901642334969872005-12-06T12:40:00.000-08:002005-12-06T12:40:00.000-08:00Now, we're getting someplace alright--to the place...Now, we're getting someplace alright--to the place where I'm in the position of pop culture enthusiast trying to defend Bach and Mozart as compared to Orthodox chant. I have to learn all new--old--musical forms and stand up for church besides! Jason, where are you when I need you?Michael Dodarohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10218455310804805561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11544102.post-1133900213986719952005-12-06T12:16:00.000-08:002005-12-06T12:16:00.000-08:00Aha! Now we're getting somewhere. Learn the old ...Aha! Now we're getting somewhere. Learn the old chants and the problem will be solved.<BR/><BR/>Keep the Christian rock Top 40 on the Top 40, but I seriously doubt it's presence there is changing the youth culture. In the last 40 years the youth culture has only gotten worse, more mired. To me, it seems to send a contradictory message -words going one way while the music goes another.<BR/><BR/>There was one rather remarkable Christian rock/ballad song that came out a few years ago. I don't know who the singer is --his first name was James. He drowned while drunk in a boating accident. Shortly before he died, he wrote a very interesting piece for guitar and solo voice that I think was entitled "Alleluia". It featured beautifully bell-like guitar accompaniment, and the singing was haunting. The many Alleluias in it actually formed an ironic counterpoint to the despairing words. After listening to the song several times, I could not find any faith expressed in this song, only hopelessness. The Alleluias seemed only to be a weeping, nothing more.<BR/><BR/>ScribeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11544102.post-1133891442269337072005-12-06T09:50:00.000-08:002005-12-06T09:50:00.000-08:00Probably, you are correct. Classical music is not,...Probably, you are correct. Classical music is not, by virtue of its excellence and enduring worth, the music that should be used in worship. I'm going to concede this one. Music in worship is something that should transcend its makers. If we really want to be a family of Christians who love one another, we're all going to have to give ground.Michael Dodarohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10218455310804805561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11544102.post-1133890537725833542005-12-06T09:35:00.000-08:002005-12-06T09:35:00.000-08:00Jason, you may not be as old as the rest of us, bu...Jason, you may not be as old as the rest of us, but when we were in college Marshall McCluhan was the rage. He wrote about 35 books, all hammering the same idea, “The medium is the message”. When the church adopts popular idioms of expression, many things come along with the form of expression. When you try to put the church of the ages into the music of the current trends you get a trendy rendition of the church. It just doesn’t sound like the movement of God’s Spirit through the ages. I think we’re all missing what Scribe has been saying about the church of the ages. In fact, the music of the Orthodox Church <I>is</I> the music that Jesus sung. This tradition goes back the music of the synagogues of the ancient near east.Michael Dodarohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10218455310804805561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11544102.post-1133875734516337322005-12-06T05:28:00.000-08:002005-12-06T05:28:00.000-08:00Just a quick comment picking up on your comment th...Just a quick comment picking up on your comment that the music culture of the church has been sent to the fringes. In the past, when state churches were powerful in Europe the church established the culture. Whether Bach wrote for the church or for the king's court, his style was essentially the same. <BR/><BR/>Today, the church emulates popular culture in order to ostensibly appeal to the masses.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com